Ros Lindsey (00:00.678)
Alright, actually what I will say before we start is that we can stop at any time. I do the editing. unfortunately I'd love to palm that off, but it's me. So I can just cut anything out, you know, that we yeah, and we can just say it again or yeah, so and the other thing is that at the end of the recording we just
Julie (00:06.67)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Julie (00:14.712)
Yep. Yep.
Julie (00:21.976)
sure thing.
Ros Lindsey (00:30.544)
they will come up with an indication of how much of the recording has been uploaded and both of us just need to wait till it uploads and sometimes it can be 10-15 minutes following the recording until it's fully uploaded. Okay. Yeah that's it but you can still work on other tabs or or carry on. Yes. Alright cheers I've got a couple as well.
Julie (00:45.452)
Yeah, I think I've done that before and I've got to just leave it all open. Yeah, easy. Yep.
Julie (00:54.73)
No worries. Mine's just water. There you go.
Ros Lindsey (00:59.968)
So is mine. Warm water. hot water. Yeah. Alright. Okay. So let me just scroll up here. Alright, so we're definitely recording.
Yeah.
Okay. Why is it that so many smart, caring, capable people find themselves on a path of deteriorating mental health? They try to manage on their own for far too long, but gradually and then suddenly they find themselves in a full-blown mental health crisis. And what would change for you if you could recognize
Those early warning signs in yourself or someone you love before it gets to that point. I'm Ros Lindsey I'm the host of the Wellness Nurse Podcast. I'm a registered nurse with a Masters of Public Health, and I am passionate about prevention and helping you to reduce your risk of lifestyle-related chronic diseases.
so that you can live a healthier life for longer. And that absolutely includes looking after your mental health, not just your physical health.
Ros Lindsey (02:26.634)
Today we are talking about worsening depression and anxiety and how to notice those early warning signs that your mental health is declining long before you're in a full blown crisis. We're going to look at those subtle changes that occur in your sleep, in your mood, energy, and coping mechanisms that are easy to dismiss when you are busy with work.
Your family and caring for everyone else. The purpose of this conversation today is primarily to let you know that you are not alone and to encourage you to let someone know how you're feeling and to reach out to someone early.
Before we go any further, I want to offer a content warning. In this episode, we'll be talking about depression and anxiety and some very difficult experiences, including thoughts about not wanting to be here. So please take care of yourself as you listen. If you're in Australia and need immediate support,
You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or 000 in an emergency. And if you're listening from elsewhere, please contact your local crisis service or emergency number.
Today we are recording this episode in two places on Turrbal and Gubbi Gubbi Country in South East Queensland and on Dark and Jung Country on the New South Wales South Coast. New South Wales Central Coast. I'll just say that again if that's all right. Is that where you are?
Julie (04:22.114)
Yep. Yeah, Central Coast, yep.
Ros Lindsey (04:25.248)
Okay. Today we are recording this episode on Turble and Cubby Cubby Country in South East Queensland and on Darkinjung Country on the New South Wales Central Coast. We pay our respects to elders past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people listening today.
So everything we talk about on this podcast is for general education and for your support, and it's never a replacement for personalised medical care. Joining me today is Julie Goodwin, one of the nation's favourite home cooks. Julie became a household name back in 2009 when she was crowned Australia's first ever Master Chef.
And since then, she's published best-selling cookbooks, she's cooked on national television, hosted breakfast radio, ran her own cooking school, and performed live shows around the country. In recent years, she has also begun speaking very openly about her own mental health journey. In her memoir, which is called Your Time Starts Now,
She shares both the highs of fame and the lows of depression, anxiety, and acute mental health care, along with her ongoing journey of recovery and hope. Julie now works with organisations like Beyond Blue, using her lived experience to spark honest conversations and reduce the stigma around getting help. And today she's here to share that journey in the hope.
it might help you or someone you love reach out for support when you need it most. Julie, thank you so much for joining us here for a conversation on the Wellness Nurse podcast.
Julie (06:33.319)
An absolute pleasure, Ross. Thank you for having me.
Ros Lindsey (06:37.034)
Julie, I would love to start with where you are now because it gives people hope. For someone who can't imagine feeling better yet, what does an ordinary, pretty good day look for you now in terms of how you look after your mind and your body?
Julie (06:51.222)
you
Julie (06:56.782)
It's really timely, actually, Ros, that you asked me that question because just yesterday I got a phone call from a number I didn't recognise and it's a lady that I met in the midst of the pandemic. It was in between lockdowns and I was on a road trip and I actually met with some strangers that I had met online during some meetings that I was doing online and she had kept my number and she rang me yesterday
yesterday morning to say I'm in a psych ward and I never saw myself here and I just, she said I've read some of your story and I just want to know is it going to be okay? How are you? What's going on? Give me some hope. That's literally what she rang me for and I hadn't spoken to this lady since 2021 and
So I was able to sort of say to her, know, life is really good and, you know, hold on, just hold on because what comes out of it, the other side, life is beautiful. It is joyful. The privilege of breaking all the way down is that you get to build your life all the way back up from scratch, you know, and make decisions about what belongs in it and what doesn't.
what your days should look like and what they shouldn't look like. So I am still and will forever be crafting my life day by day and decision by decision. But I'm doing it in such an informed way that, you know, I wake up in the morning with things to look forward to instead of things to dread. And so that is a lovely place to be.
Ros Lindsey (08:51.518)
Yeah, that's so beautiful and the way that you describe breaking down as a privilege in a sense because you can start crafting that it is a privilege but an incredibly painful journey along the way too.
Julie (09:06.894)
Well that's just it Ros and you know you're passionate about prevention and I am too. What I want by speaking to this is for people to start crafting that life for themselves without having to go all the way to the bottom of that hole. You know we can make those decisions without it almost being the end of us you know. Start making those decisions before you get all the way there. That's my
Ros Lindsey (09:24.415)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (09:29.524)
That's it.
Ros Lindsey (09:34.324)
Yeah.
Julie (09:36.3)
purpose now too.
Ros Lindsey (09:38.393)
that is amazing. That just makes my heart sing because there's just so much that we can do. And I think of you know, the person that's listening, they might be feeling good today or okay, or not okay, or feeling really low, or feeling in despair.
And if we can recognise when we're feeling up here or we're dropping a little bit and we take action in those times, we can maintain that status quo or we can bring ourselves up, we can reach for help in a timely manner, and it can prevent that that spiral. So that is yeah, that is just really reassuring to hear that that's your story now too.
Julie (10:25.838)
Yeah, that's what I've said that to over and over is that once you're at the bottom of the well, it's hard to see a toe hold. You can see that tiny speck of light and you actually logically we all know what we have to do to climb out of it. We've heard it before, but you know, perhaps those things haven't landed with us, but you can't figure out.
how to get started. You know what you have to do, you just can't do it. My hope, my dream, my goal is that people...
Ros Lindsey (10:51.038)
Mm.
That's wrong.
Julie (10:59.95)
you know, grab hold of the help that's available before you're at the bottom of the well and the illness takes over and the voices are not rational anymore and there's nothing to be found down there. You know, it's really important to recognise when you're starting, when you're in the bucket and you're starting to head down. So yeah, that's what it's all about and had I paid attention to those earlier signs and symptoms I would not have ended up, you know.
Ros Lindsey (11:22.464)
Yeah.
Julie (11:29.614)
in the mess, the terrible mess I ended up in.
Ros Lindsey (11:35.275)
Well, there was a time when you were doing a lot, and I get the feeling you are again or still doing a lot, but you were doing radio, you're writing, running a cooking school, helping with the family business. Your husband has a business as well, on top of raising three boys and days off were as rare as hens teeth.
And you've written in your memoir in your memoir about leaving the studio and the smile just dropping off your face. And why do you think so many of us, you included, feel such pressure to keep that smile on and to keep performing even when we're not okay? And what what did that cost you personally?
Julie (12:31.102)
I you know, for anyone who's sort of a bit overwhelmed, overworked, struggling, we do put pressure on ourselves to mask that. And I think there's a rainbow of reasons for that. I think partially because you don't want to worry the people that you love. You don't have an answer for people who say what's wrong. So you pretend there's nothing wrong. I think that especially
especially for women my age. I think there's some generational stuff going on there that, you know, I was raised by.
Boomers, right? I'm a Gen X. I was raised by Boomers who was raised by the silent generation. And those people are stoic, man. They, my Nan was, she was brought up through the war, through the depression. She raised her kids with that, you know, there's always someone worse off than you. You've got to be grateful. You've got to pick yourself up, dust yourself off. You've got to keep going. Chin up.
put a good face on it, put on a happy face, fake it till you make it. We've got so many phrases for suck it up princess, first world problems, know, all of that stuff. And all of that is to kind of shame us into feeling inadequate or weak or less than if we say that's actually a bit too much for me right now. And that is one of the stigmas that needs to be broken.
Ros Lindsey (13:36.564)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (13:45.023)
Yeah.
Julie (14:04.16)
It needs to be broken. We cannot feel ashamed about being overwhelmed or being overworked or having too much put on our plate. And we all know that the more capable you are and the more people pleasing and perfectionist you are, the more people heap on your plate, the more you take because you are not willing to say, I'm not Wonder Woman.
Ros Lindsey (14:27.858)
Mm, mm, mm, yes, yes.
Julie (14:28.398)
because you want to be Wonder Woman, because we're told we have to be Wonder Woman or Wonder Man, you know, this is this is gendered in that I think we suffer differently with how we bring ourselves to the brink. But it's not gendered in that men and women both experience this stuff and experience it in ways that are life threatening. So, you know, I don't want to say this is just a woman's problem. It's really not. But I think that we have different different approaches to life that bring
Ros Lindsey (14:55.08)
Mm.
Julie (14:58.362)
us undone. And I think that for women it's very much that we've got to hold things together for the family, we've got to carry everything for the family, we often carry everything in our workplaces. And you know that whole idea of if you want something done give it to a busy person, cut it out. The busy person is busy because they can't say no, stop it, stop burdening them with more stuff. If you want something done, go do it.
Ros Lindsey (14:59.39)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (15:15.721)
Yes.
Ros Lindsey (15:19.646)
Yes, that's true. Yes, go do it yourself. Exactly. And I think for busy women, you know, you talk about the differences in gender. I think for women particularly there is additionally that striving to show that we are just as good as the men or whatever it is, but like a moth to a flame, we go.
Julie (15:42.69)
Yep, yep, but we can do it.
Ros Lindsey (15:48.252)
You know, there's another opportunity to shine, and we will go for it. And when we are already, yeah, it's punishing. Yeah.
Julie (15:50.895)
It's punishing. It's punishing. It's deadly. It's deadly and we've to stop the language around it. You know, we've got to stop that whole, you know, could be worse. Of course it could be worse. There's always someone in a worse position, you know.
Ros Lindsey (16:09.824)
Mm.
Julie (16:13.016)
But we have to acknowledge that unless we're filling our own cup up a little bit, we can't be helpful to people in those positions. And you know, Ros again, just a timely reminder, I've just learned two days ago that a dear friend of mine has a very grave illness with a very poor prognosis.
Ros Lindsey (16:40.06)
dear.
Julie (16:41.0)
And it's devastating. And I can sort of take that news and go, so stop feeling sorry for yourself, to myself, and use that as a stick to beat myself with. But instead, what I know is that I have to look after myself so that I can be there to support her and her family. I have to make sure I'm OK so that I can bring something to her during this time.
Ros Lindsey (16:44.956)
Mm I'm so sorry.
Julie (17:10.766)
And also what I have to do is say all the more how every day is precious and important. So it has to be filled with things that are precious and important. You know, not things that are performative, not things to make anyone else think a certain way about me, just things that are precious and important.
Ros Lindsey (17:35.166)
What a a beautiful bit of sweet reminder that that is absolutely. Yes, yes.
Julie (17:41.399)
Yep, bittersweet, bittersweet. But you know, we all just get this one life, you know. And if, you know, surely I know that if I could say to this friend of mine, here's a toolkit of things that you can do to bring your health back. My God, she would do them. So what I can say to you is if you have declining mental health,
There's a toolkit of things that you can do that may save your life. Please do them. Please take this toolkit. Please apply these tools.
Ros Lindsey (18:16.764)
Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. There are just there are so many free resources that Australia provides and I will provide I'll I'll do a blog, so I'll link in the show notes to a blog that will outline all the different free resources that are available to you in every state and territory of Australia. So please avail yourself of that.
I mean Lifeline is at the top of that list really. And beyond Blue, I mean the Black Dog Institute, anyone that that you gravitate, you can reach out to them. And there's a whole lot of resources on their websites. You know, really practical that might just meet you where you're at today.
Julie (19:13.582)
The reality is that sometimes you find people in a place, and I found myself in a place where you can't actually take advantage of those resources and you can't use the tools in your toolkit because you're so depleted that there's really nothing left. you know, when that illness steps in, and we're talking critical stage, when that illness takes over and the voices come from there and nowhere rational.
Ros Lindsey (19:28.456)
Mm. Yeah.
Julie (19:43.183)
it can be an impossibility to find those resources or to even lift your hand up to pick up your telephone and make that phone call, you know, or the will to do it or the want to even help yourself can be gone. So, you know, again, this is where recognising those signs and symptoms while you still have...
Ros Lindsey (19:55.124)
Right.
Julie (20:09.1)
the strength or the will or any modicum of a voice inside your head that wants out of that scenario, know, that wants to get better, that knows that they need help, then that's the time to act before it's all, you know, critically dangerous.
Ros Lindsey (20:21.503)
Hmm.
Ros Lindsey (20:32.176)
Absolutely. Julie, one of the questions I have flowing through my mind is that do you think the narrative of reaching out for an ambulance or going to the hospital when you are mentally unwell is equally as loud as it is for when we've got a fill physical illness? Or does it
Julie (20:59.008)
No, I think there seems to be... There's a terrible disconnect between mental health and physical health. I don't understand it. It's as though... It's as though, like, not just people and our perception, but the whole system is set up as though our brain is walking around on a stick separate to our body. That ain't it.
Ros Lindsey (21:06.208)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (21:22.272)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (21:24.608)
It's all connected. Our physical health impacts our mental health. You ask anyone with a chronic physical disease how their mental health is, and I guarantee you it's impacted by that physical disease. And you ask anyone with a chronic mental illness how that impacts your physicality and your ability to move and to do the things you need to do for your body. It's all intertwined. is inextricably intertwined.
But for some reason, there's a lot of stigma around saying, it's this organ that needs help, not my heart or my lungs or my liver or my kidneys or my gut or my broken leg, you know, or my torn tendon or my, you know, it's this organ here. It's still part of your body, but it's this organ here. We suddenly...
Ros Lindsey (22:15.541)
Mm.
Julie (22:16.694)
can't bring ourselves to ask for help for it. And we have to. We have to just connect everything back up, you know. And even again, just that generational reluctance to ask for help. My parents are so reluctant to ask for help. Even when things, you know, it might be a chest pain or a slurred speech and it's like call an ambulance. we'll sleep on it and see what happens.
It's like banging your head against a brick wall and what happens if you don't wake up? And the only way I can get them to do it is that I'm still very fortunate for me, I've got both of my parents and I can say, well, what happens if she doesn't wake up? What happens if he doesn't wake up? How are going to feel that you didn't call an ambulance? Oh, well, oh, well, we've been...
Ros Lindsey (22:47.72)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (23:06.156)
Yeah, never for themselves, but because they're still madly in love with each other, I can blackmail them like that. But we've just got to let go of that idea that there's some kind of inherent weakness in asking for any kind of help.
Ros Lindsey (23:06.528)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (23:17.183)
Mm.
Julie (23:22.178)
But there's so much stigma around the mental health thing. I actually didn't realise. You know, Ros and especially if you work in the space that you do, you see all this, you know, ads on TV, the RUOK Day, the corporate responsibility that's been built in surrounding mental health, mental health sick leave, know, compassionate leave, all this sort of stuff that seems to be being built into the system to help.
But it hasn't erased the stigma anywhere near as much as I thought it had. And I didn't know it until I spoke out publicly about my own story. part of the reason I did that was because I found myself in a psychiatric unit, you know, and
Ros Lindsey (24:01.952)
Hmm.
Julie (24:11.424)
I was with all these people who, cause you know, you don't know what that's going to be like when you, I told you need to go there. And really the only things that I ever experienced about psych wards were what I'd seen in the movies, you know. So I really had no idea what to expect. I thought I was going to prison. It is kind of a prison in a way. I didn't know what to expect of the other patients in there. And you know what, they're all just like me.
They're all just like me. We all had different things going on, but really at the heart of it, we were all pretty much the same. We're all unwell and doing what we can to get better. And we're doing that for ourselves, but mainly because when you're in that situation, you don't like yourself very much, mainly for the people that love us to try and alleviate some of their pain and their concern.
Ros Lindsey (24:46.208)
Mm.
Julie (25:06.858)
around us and you know the messes that we've you know supposedly made of our lives and what I saw in all the people around me was just so much shame so much shame about the fact that they were there or that they were back there and that you know that they hadn't managed to fix themselves and that they you know needed this help and that just seemed so wrong to me.
Ros Lindsey (25:31.942)
It is so wrong it is so wrong.
Julie (25:34.039)
And I would be saying to all these other people, why are you so hard on yourself? Aren't you here trying to make yourself better? This is grace that I did not extend to myself, by the way. But I was able to extend it to every other person in there. And I just thought that's not right. It's not right to loathe yourself because you need some help. It's just not right. And so...
And ever since, you know, ever since I've been talking about it, I had a girl come up to me. She would have been in her early 30s and she said, I went into a mental hospital when I was 19 years old and you're the first person I've ever told.
She said, no one ever talks about it. No one ever talks about it. And I've carried a lot of shame with me for all those years. You're the first person outside my family that knows about it. And it's the first time I felt able to say it out loud. It's a hospital, you know? Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (26:29.554)
And I it's hospital, it's it's acute care when an organ is failing, when there is chemical imbalance, when we are unwell. I think doing what you are doing, a a person like you that has a platform that is able and willing.
Julie (26:40.803)
Yep.
Exactly.
Ros Lindsey (26:56.372)
to be vulnerable and to be open and honest and to share your experience is is piece by piece removing some of that stigma. I think
Julie (27:10.424)
Well, I hope so. I hope so because early intervention, you know, the ability to say things out loud that we haven't been allowed to say out loud.
Ros Lindsey (27:23.167)
Mm.
Julie (27:23.434)
you know, that's where other people might go. Well, you know, maybe you don't have to end up in that situation and so on well if you don't get overloaded in the first place or if you can recognise that there's maybe some stuff that you need to work out as to why you are a perfectionist or why you constantly need people's approval and you're a people pleaser and you nearly, you know, work yourself into a state because you
cannot let anybody down, I can't let anybody down. Just learning how to say no and learning how to understand that actually sometimes saying no isn't letting somebody down, you know, and actually asking for a hand here and there can actually
be the help that somebody else needs, you know, because you're showing some faith in somebody else's ability and you're offering somebody else an opportunity to achieve something and to shine and to actually, you know, feel useful instead of you thinking you're the only person who can possibly achieve the things that need to be achieved, you know, along with that perfectionism, that people pleasing, there's a little sense of, I'm the only one who's ever going to do this right, isn't there? You know, we're going to let go of that.
We're not the only person who can do things right. We've got to accept that there are other capable people around us. And sometimes all we need to do is ask. And it's not the big ask we thought it was going to be. It's like, yeah, sure, no problem. I was going that way anyway. yeah, no worries. Or actually, amazing. I've been busting to give that a go. I'd love to do that.
Ros Lindsey (28:44.682)
We do.
Ros Lindsey (29:02.036)
Yeah.
Julie (29:10.391)
We build things up in our heads to a degree that we don't need to a lot of the time.
Ros Lindsey (29:16.052)
That's so true and so beautifully articulated. I'm wondering for the person listening, what could it be today that you actually reach out to somebody for? Could you ask them something today that you just need a little a little help with? You know, it's it's There is no shame in asking for help. And there's a challenge, yeah.
Julie (29:36.857)
There's not. I've got a perfectly pragmatic husband. So I'm very lucky. He's like this voice of reason that steps in when I need it. And so sometimes I channel him when he's not even there. And one of the very pragmatic things he says to me, OK, so what of those things that's worrying you do you have control over and what don't you have control over? OK, so the things you don't have control over.
Ros Lindsey (29:47.4)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (30:01.354)
Yeah.
Julie (30:05.506)
Let's forget about those, shall we? It's so annoying. But then the other thing that he does very, very well, it's because he's very pragmatic and I think that there are... And again, know, men can be like this. What are the things we need to do to sort this out? He'll say, you know, if I'm getting a bit heightened, and I still do, and my pathway, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, my pathway is ongoing and I...
constantly have to keep coming back to the basics and reminding myself of what I need to do and you know who's driving the bus at the moment because I'm a bit out there at the moment you know so if I get a bit heightened a bit anxious if symptoms are starting to creep in the mental and the physical symptoms are starting to creep in which they do he will say to me tell me what's on your list for today and I'll tell him and he'll say
Which of those are 100 % necessary? And you know what? Sometimes there's hardly anything on there that is actually, when we're talking... brass tacks.
strictly necessary and sometimes it's even the things that you thought you could never drop off your list that you actually have to drop off your list and you know one of the most important things in my life right now is is I love to pick up my granddaughter from preschool she is the most important thing for me time with her top of my list but if I'm having a day or a moment
Ros Lindsey (31:34.015)
Hmm.
Julie (31:45.507)
then it's not outside the realm of possibility for me to say, well actually, babe, what's your day look like? Could you come home a bit early and be the one to pick her up? Or say to my son or my daughter-in-law, can we switch days this week?
I'll get her another day you know so even though that is one of the most crucial beautiful my favourite thing to do and one of the most important things that I do I can still shuffle that you know so let alone well I was going to I was going to bake a dessert tonight because I haven't tested that recipe I was going to you know I really wanted to get all the washing done I have to do my my column but you know the deadline's not for another week I have to you know
Ros Lindsey (32:29.279)
Mm.
Julie (32:29.536)
all the things that just start freaking me out. If I actually look at the list of what needs to happen today and he'll say, so can you build in a hot bath and a nap after lunch? I'm like, yeah, I can. I know, I know. Yes, but you know, so.
Ros Lindsey (32:33.852)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (32:43.57)
What? Who is this man?
Ha ha ha.
Julie (32:53.23)
you can channel that voice. He doesn't have to be there. It's like when my computer breaks down and I ring him up because he's an IT consultant and before I even get the question out, I'll say to him, babe I'm just having a problem with you, don't worry, I'll turn it off and turn it on again and I hang up on him.
Ros Lindsey (32:56.788)
Mm. Mm.
Julie (33:14.262)
And I turn it off and turn it on again because sometimes you can turn your brain off and turn it on again and go, what actually is necessary? What am I flogging myself with that I don't need to flog myself with? And that's just a little very super practical thing that you can do. Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (33:16.2)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (33:27.668)
Yeah, yeah. what an amazing analogy that is. Just to stop the brain, turn it turn it off, turn it on again. Let's see where we're at. What do we have to do today? What's necessary? What can we drop?
Julie (33:38.787)
Yep. Yeah, yep. That's a simple one. And again, you know, you do have to be at a point in your life where you can logic that out. So that's quite different to that down the bottom of the well. you know, perhaps perhaps what we can do is build that bridge between those practical simple things that we can do when we're quite well.
Ros Lindsey (33:49.46)
Hmm. Yes.
Julie (34:05.038)
as opposed to, and those things that might stop us going to the bottom of the well, as opposed to the things that we need to recognise are those, that descent and how we haul ourselves out once we're down there.
Ros Lindsey (34:05.045)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (34:09.31)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (34:15.946)
I'm just going to have a little drink. Just a minute. Uh-uh. You're doing all the talking.
Julie (34:23.074)
me too and Roz because I know that this is going to be an edit point for you. Can I just say I
Ros Lindsey (34:28.739)
Mm mm mm.
Julie (34:33.868)
Because that news about my friend is so fresh, I had not thought about speaking about that. That just came out and really that was more about letting you know my mindset at the moment. I'm not sure that I want that to remain in if that's okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know it's possibly a useful thing to talk about, but I'm just, I'm all up in...
Ros Lindsey (34:42.687)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (34:46.312)
Mm.
Okay, I can remove I can remove that. Absolutely. No, no, not at all. We'll just take it out. It's that easy. Yeah, absolutely.
Julie (35:02.614)
I'm seeing her this afternoon, we only found out on Friday. So she's got stage 4 pancreatic cancer so she's... This is not... Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (35:06.304)
shit. I'm so sorry.
Ros Lindsey (35:16.133)
dear.
Julie (35:18.158)
Yeah, and I mean it truly is one of those I've had to speak to myself again and say God God Julie stop being so sorry for yourself and then go stop talking to yourself like that, you know, so it's
Ros Lindsey (35:31.006)
Wow, that's really interesting, you know, that you know that message that comes through, you really recognize it, and yet it still comes. It's just it's like
Julie (35:40.567)
It still comes. I'm still and I don't mind if I don't mind talking about this, you know, that one of the things I've got to do is still regulate those voices that pop up and say, God, you, they're so strong and they're lifelong conditioning. And it will be a life's work to keep reconditioning.
Ros Lindsey (35:49.717)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, they're very strong. That's it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I do exactly the same thing. Right before coming on to talk to you, I got a call from my lawyer. I'm just cutting this out completely, but like it just like you're here and then it's like shit, I'm right down here. That took two seconds. but thankfully I know that I can because I've already got this foundation.
Julie (36:17.974)
Yeah.
Julie (36:21.474)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (36:29.837)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (36:29.948)
I know exactly what I need to do. I'm going to do a wisdom medication, I know, and I'm going to do a car meditation and I'm going to bring myself back and I'm you know, but it's it's like these are the things that just come in and undo us. It's just
Julie (36:34.946)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (36:44.832)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I get absolute sucker punch, isn't it?
Ros Lindsey (36:52.03)
Yeah it is. I'm really, really sorry. this is yeah, huge news for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (36:57.26)
Yeah, but you know, like you say, and the funny thing is that, you know, what you've done this morning and kudos to you, it just takes the wind right out of you. Doing it sometimes because we need to.
Ros Lindsey (37:10.559)
Hmm.
Julie (37:18.734)
It's when we've got it like going on radio. That's five days a week, three hours every morning and you cannot turn up to that with the wind out of your sails. Well, it nearly killed me. It nearly killed me. you know, that's what that's the price of pasting shit over the cracks day after day after day. That is the cost is it will nearly kill you. So, yeah. Yep.
Ros Lindsey (37:25.32)
I don't know how you do that. That just blows me away. It really does.
Ros Lindsey (37:35.038)
Wow. Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (37:43.089)
using that analogy of shit over the cracks, that's that's actually really powerful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can't sustain it. It's just not sustainable. All right, I'm going to come into it's actually just question three.
Julie (37:49.314)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Julie (37:57.275)
Sometimes it's appropriate and we have to. Sometimes we have to pull it together but when you're doing it all the time. yeah, let's... No.
Ros Lindsey (38:12.09)
what was the last thing we said? Okay. All right, So Let's talk about what are those changes that are happening gradually. What do you recognize when you're when you feel that slide that you know there's a shift in the way that you're feeling? What are some of the small gradual changes in your mood, in your body, or in your behaviour that you brushed off at the time?
Julie (38:40.388)
look, I'm a great person to ask that because I'm a very, very obstinate and like obstinately ignored all of them. And so I've got the whole range for you, right? From the very, very first signs all the way to the, know, I think it might've been something Oprah said, I'm going to paraphrase and I think it was Oprah, I might be wrong, but at first it's a whisper and then it's,
Ros Lindsey (39:07.829)
Mm.
Julie (39:09.71)
a yell and then it's just a Mack truck or it's a two by four across the head or something. So I've got the whole range because I steadfastly refused to acknowledge any sign or symptom that things were declining because you know, I'm strong, I'm capable, we don't do that. I'm the luckiest person in the world. What have I got to ever be depressed about? And I actually resisted diagnosis of depression.
most of my life. I told off...
an antenatal nurse. know, I had depression after I had my first baby. I've gone through periods of it my whole life and I have fought and fought against that diagnosis my whole life. Because how dare you say that about me? I am not a depressed person. I'm a happy person. I'm an optimist. I'm strong. I'm capable. Don't you dare challenge my idea of who I am with that dreadful word. It'll just become this self-fulfilling, self-pitying prophecy.
Just so you understand, that's where I came from, right? I ain't there now baby because it's a clinical diagnosis, it's not a moral judgment. So let's take the moral judgment out of the whole thing and let me tell you the signs and symptoms that I experienced. So first of all, it sounds obvious but sadness. Crying at the drop of a hat.
Ros Lindsey (40:17.908)
Mm.
Julie (40:41.556)
And with that sort of heaviness of heart, you know, I found myself hyper emotional. So the slightest thing could make me cry. And sometimes irrationally, it would seem irrational, but there it was. And I'm kind of a teary person. that's...
that crept in without me noticing and then sometimes I would just think this is ridiculous, this is ridiculous, I'm just crying way too much. And with that comes then a weariness for me. And of course I'm describing my own signs and symptoms. What I would say to anybody listening is you might recognise these or you might say, you know what?
That doesn't resonate, but something else has changed in me that I would like to get curious about. And that, that to me is one of the most important phrases in this whole topic of conversation is just get curious. If you notice a change, if people, if more people than usual are saying, are you okay? You seem tired, you seem stressed. Have you got too much on? Don't be irritated. Get curious about it.
And even ask them, is there a reason you're asking me that? Is there something you've noticed? Get curious. So fatigue is a big one for me. And when I'm naturally fatigued, if I feel like I'm getting enough sleep, but I still want to have a nap at 10 o'clock in the morning or, you know, I'm really dragging my feet by lunchtime, that's a sign for me that.
I'm there's something's whirring away in the background that probably should be cooled off a bit. So those are my first signs and symptoms. definitely having to be conscious about the expression on my face.
Julie (42:33.9)
was something that became quite physical for me. I was Back when things started to go downhill very quickly for me, I was working on the radio. So that's a great litmus test for how you're doing. Because from six till nine in the morning, I had to get up, my alarm went off at four o'clock in the morning, which meant I had to go to bed quite early to get the sleep in that I needed. You cannot be off.
when you're doing breakfast radio, it's got to be very upbeat. You've got to have your humour about you. can't even, you can't even wait a couple of beats before you answer a question. It is, you have got to be on and firing and with it for those three hours. And then there's all the sort of stuff you've got to do afterwards. You've got meetings and the podcasting and the client visits and all that sort of stuff and content creation, you know.
filming stuff there's heaps of stuff to do after you but for those three hours switched on and it's got to be with a smile on your face because as you know you can hear a smile and you can hear when you're not smiling so all we have to offer listeners is what they can hear so you've got to be smiling and I would remember thinking
got to engage those muscles, got to smile. And I remember walking out the door, saying goodbye to everybody at the end of the day and walking out the door and just the strain on those muscles was enormous. I would, my face would then just, it would slide off and it was almost impossible to move my face into any other expression, you know? And that's where sometimes I would find myself driving from there and I would have to go to my...
cooking school where I was running a business. had two, literally two full-time jobs. Sometimes I would go and find somewhere to park or just sob until that had all left my system and then I would have to put my face back on, go into my business and forward face the public again and go again. So that...
Ros Lindsey (44:42.909)
Bye.
Julie (44:44.546)
that frozen sort of feeling where you have to paste things on. That was very much one of my signs and symptoms. When I ignored all of that, things started to get physical. And that's kind of where I started to go to the doctor because you don't go to the doctor and say, I feel sad. Well, I wouldn't anyway. But I would go to the doctor and say, every time I look up, I have a massive dizzy spell and I think I'm going to faint.
I've got tinnitus in my ears. can't hear. It's like that seven-year Cicada thing. I can't hear above this screeching in my ears. I have had ulcers in my mouth for months. I can't bear to eat anything acidic or salty because my whole mouth is full of ulcers. And then I got sores on my head. Sores all over my scalp. Scabs. Like awful sores.
Ros Lindsey (45:23.368)
Mm.
Julie (45:40.623)
I had one period of time where I broke out in boils all over my body. I got the shakes. When it started to get very, very bad, I shook so hard that I couldn't get food into my mouth because it would fall off my fork. I was shaking so hard. When I was very, very ill, and this frightened me because I thought I must have a brain tumour, I couldn't read.
So I would look at words on a page and reading is very much a big part of my life. I love to read books. I would look at words on a page and it was like ants crawling over a page and I couldn't make sense of the words on the page. And I thought that I had a brain tumour. So all of these physical symptoms, and my guts as well, I had...
Ros Lindsey (46:11.498)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (46:35.766)
I thought I had irritable bowel and like I did, but it was all, it all came from stress. So these symptoms became so physical. I've got, you know, some funny stories about the guts issue because that became so severe and so chronic that I really couldn't move far from the bathroom for periods of time. It all became so serious.
Ros Lindsey (46:40.563)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (47:03.54)
Mm, mm, mm.
Julie (47:03.554)
that I thought I actually thought that I was dying and that nobody could figure out what it was that was killing me. And unfortunately, because nobody could figure out what was wrong and all these random small insignificant to the doctors things, it's probably a low grade virus, it's probably a low grade infection, there's nothing showing up in your bloods. I medicated myself.
Ros Lindsey (47:27.968)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (47:31.331)
So the thing that slowed my head down and stopped me from feeling useless and actually allowed me to go to sleep was to have a drink of wine at night. And, you know, while I was working on the radio, I didn't drink during the week because it was just, you just can't get up at four o'clock in the morning if you've had a drink during the week. But once I stopped doing the radio, it was on for young and old and it just got out of control, you know. So it was a terrible...
downward spiral. And by the time I actually did end up accepting a diagnosis of depression, because it was just unavoidable at that stage, I couldn't stop crying, couldn't. The getting myself to work every day was, it was just the most gargantuan effort. I did it though, I did it. So
There are some people for whom this manifests in a physicality and I did, I felt like I was going around in the world with wet blankets over my shoulders. The weight of all my limbs was so enormous. Lifting my hand was an effort that was, it's hard to describe other than that. Like I was in wet sand or I had wet woolen blankets draped over me. And I know that for some people they can't get out of bed.
I could get out of bed, but that's how I moved through the world. It was like being in syrup. And I was able to do what I had to do and show up how I had to show up for those bursts of time. But by the time I got home, I was nothing. I had nothing for my family. I couldn't smile. couldn't, I just, had nothing for them. And these are the people I love most in the whole world for whom I would.
Ros Lindsey (49:00.448)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (49:17.216)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (49:26.702)
give anything at all. But I was giving everything I had to my work and to the facade that everything was okay. So yeah, the mask fell off my face and it cracked into a thousand pieces on the floor and I just thought I'm no good to anybody. I'm no good to anybody. Look how sick I am. Look how useless I am. You know, the illness really took over.
Ros Lindsey (49:27.2)
Mm.
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (49:37.952)
Mm.
Julie (49:55.435)
my thoughts and my thoughts very much became I am just such a burden. I'm such a burden. And this is me at the bottom of the well now. Look at these people that I love. Look at the worry that I'm causing them. Look at the pain that I'm causing them. How much better would they be if I just fucked off
and that's where I found myself.
Ros Lindsey (50:35.038)
Allez.
Ros Lindsey (50:40.062)
You mentioned, you know, when we hear the whispers, we can pay attention then. And when we can hear the messages coming a little bit louder, you know, you went from I feel sad, I feel fatigued, you know, to the physical symptoms starting to show up to that complete
Despair and the loss of rational thought, really, and the entry of those dreadful, dreadful thoughts.
I'm I'm so sorry to hear your story, to hear the pain of that, and that you are repeating that story again. The reason, you know, that you are doing that is again for the person that's listening, and if you are recognizing, if you're identifying any of those early, those early whispers, that
That, dear God, is the time to move and pay attention.
Julie (51:59.311)
Thank
This is...
life-threatening illness. It is a deadly illness and it claims lives every day in this country, far too many of them, a greater proportion than is fathomable. It is as serious as any other illness and it needs to be taken seriously and if you had the early symptoms of anything else, my god, you would run for the help that you need. So
Ros Lindsey (52:06.292)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (52:14.824)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (52:18.484)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (52:26.918)
Mm. Yeah. Mm. Mm. It mmm yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like the the statistics are extraordinary in Australia and they are devastating. it yeah that is.
Julie (52:32.908)
Just treat it the same way. Treat it the same way.
Julie (52:43.874)
early, you can turn it around. It is a chronic condition, it can be a chronic condition. But the treatment...
Ros Lindsey (52:57.183)
That's it.
Julie (53:08.89)
is doable, you know, the treatment makes you well and the treatment will differ from person to person but the things that you have to do to manage depression and to manage anxiety will improve your life in ways that you can't even imagine, you know, in ways that you, for me,
Ros Lindsey (53:14.826)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (53:37.487)
my the treatment that I use the tools in my toolkit and the things that I do have given me a lease on life that I could not fathom back then I could not even imagine when I was sick and I'm so grateful I'm so grateful that everything I've gone through because
Ros Lindsey (53:53.044)
Yeah.
Julie (54:03.764)
Without it I wouldn't be where I am, you know? And where I am is so beautiful. It's so beautiful. I am blessed beyond my wildest dreams, you know? I wouldn't swap my life for anything. Not for anything. I wouldn't swap it for a 10 year younger me. I wouldn't swap it for a billionaire. I wouldn't swap it...
Ros Lindsey (54:06.4)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (54:18.388)
Hmm. Well, yeah.
Ros Lindsey (54:24.223)
Yeah.
Julie (54:34.102)
for anything in the world because I am blessed, you know, and my days are beautiful and I've got people around me. I'm so lucky to have the people around me that I do and I'm so lucky to now have the perspectives that I do. And a lot of the reason for that is that I've actually gotten rid of some of those deeply conditioned voices that tell me that if I do something for myself that I'm selfish.
that if I exercise self-care that I'm taking something away from somebody else. Because now what I know is that if I don't exercise self-care I'm going to take myself away from the people that I love. And you know what I know now?
Ros Lindsey (55:10.686)
Mm. dear.
Julie (55:22.262)
I'm useful to them. I'm loved by them. I am needed by them. I am valued by them and I add to their lives. I contribute to their lives.
Ros Lindsey (55:36.115)
Absolutely. And those voices, those voices need to be so loud. You know, if those other voices are creeping in, they how did you how did you silence the other voices or make them quieter? Because sometimes, you know, on a on a bad day, sometimes those voices can creep in again. So how do you actively, what would that look like for you?
Julie (55:59.001)
They do.
Julie (56:03.17)
Look, I would say number one, well, therapy. had to really, and I know because I've got friends like this who have their own issues who are like, don't see the point in going into the past and digging all that up. For me, that's been crucial actually to understand why, what brought me to this idea.
Ros Lindsey (56:25.92)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (56:31.234)
that everybody has to love me. That if I let somebody down that the world's going to fall apart. know, what made me think that I have to do everything perfectly or I'll be left on my own? What made me think that if I don't hold everything together with sheer will and my little fingernails that everything's going to fly apart? You know, I had to go back, way back and
Ros Lindsey (56:58.837)
Yeah.
Julie (56:59.678)
uncover and discover what little parts of me were inside holding on to these beliefs that were formed when I was too little to understand any better. You know, when I thought that I had to hold things together, when I thought that, you know, being a shiny little overachieving perfectionist was the way to be loved, you know. I had to unlearn a lot of that stuff and I had to figure out that
you know, all those lessons that I learned, they've brought me to where I am, you know, they've brought me to where I am. So I can't, I can't be sad about anything that's happened. I just have to understand its place in my life now and why I have these beliefs. So I think that learning where this stuff comes from can really, really help because now
When those voices come in and my god they do sometimes like an absolute freight train if I do something stupid like objectively stupid which I still do it's really easy for those voices that we don't like to just go you absolute idiot you know.
You are such a loser, you're such an idiot, you're such a... Why do you ruin everything? That's a big one for me. Why do you ruin everything? And that is, my God, what a thing to say. I don't ruin everything, but I can recognise where that voice comes from and I can say, okay, honey, have a little seat, have a little seat. It's okay. It's okay. We don't ruin everything.
Ros Lindsey (58:22.417)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (58:30.644)
Hmm, yeah.
Julie (58:39.95)
We have certainly made a mess of that particular thing, but we have the resources to sort it out. You know, we have the resources. We're a grown-ass adult now and we are 55. So take a chill pill. It's all going to be fine. And in the context of this day, this week, this year, this life, this planet, this universe, this is nothing. It's nothing. It's fine. So...
Ros Lindsey (58:45.952)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (58:57.696)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (59:07.217)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julie (59:09.962)
silencing those voices you can't just say shh you know and there's a lot of and you will know this a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy where you take a bad thought and you put it in a bubble and you let it float away that does rely on you noticing your thoughts constantly that can get exhausting so I would say
talk to somebody, professional, someone with no skin in your particular game, right? Not a family member, they've all got their own baggage, they've all got their own reasons for saying to you what they say to you. Go and talk to a counselor, a professional and start to understand why those thoughts appear in the first place and that will really help you to put it on a leaf and let it float down a stream the way that cognitive behavioral therapy tells you that you should do. So that's
Ros Lindsey (59:35.519)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (59:53.856)
Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (59:58.933)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:00:00.3)
one and that's a really big one.
Ros Lindsey (01:00:02.31)
It is it is a big one and it's something that there's a lot of people living day to day and they have had trauma in their lives and they may not even acknowledge it or remember it or but it is showing up in in a variety of ways and I would encourage people to to seek that professional help with a psychologist
Julie (01:00:19.618)
Yeah. Yep.
Ros Lindsey (01:00:30.912)
start with your GP, go from there. Because yeah, it just it does impact so many areas of of our lives if there is that trauma that has not been addressed and there is hope at the other there is hope at the other side of that. Yeah.
Julie (01:00:34.115)
Yeah.
Julie (01:00:44.386)
Yep. Yep.
and address trauma.
Julie (01:00:53.516)
Yeah. And trauma has a, it's a funny word because often people think the word trauma and they think it must be one catastrophic event, but that's actually, it's a much broader definition, a much broader definition of trauma as it applies to, you know, our mental health and you, you know, you may not even know that you've been through.
Ros Lindsey (01:01:03.348)
Mm.
Julie (01:01:17.454)
trauma or a complex trauma which is sort of something that's ongoing that's impacted you. That is That's definitely one of the big big ticket items that I would recommend. Obviously there's a chemical thing going on for a lot of people when it comes to their mental health and I'm on medication and I had to try a couple of different ones.
There are some factions out there in the world, particularly the online world that will shame you for seeking medication help, but people wouldn't shame you if you were taking blood pressure medication. They wouldn't shame you if you were taking medication for...
so many other kinds of critical illness so don't allow yourself to be shamed for that either. You've got to do what you've got to do. My medication is working for me and my god while I'm on the equilibrium that I'm on I ain't changing a thing because I'm frightened that if I do that I might start down that slope again and I don't want to. And then there's sort of a whole bevy of other things that can be done but you know and again I keep
Ros Lindsey (01:02:10.556)
Mm. Yeah, that's right.
Julie (01:02:38.442)
wanting to qualify this Ros because I think it's important that when I say the things that have helped me first of all everyone's going to have a different range of stuff that helps them second of all you can only do what you can do so the things that I can do
Ros Lindsey (01:02:48.16)
Mm.
Julie (01:02:55.21)
Partially I can do because I am very privileged to have the resources, okay? So I'm privileged to have the resources to go and see a psychologist. That is expensive for a lot of people. So for some people it's a case of finding the available resources that don't cost money, okay? And I wish that there were more of those available and I will advocate for that.
Ros Lindsey (01:03:06.25)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (01:03:14.676)
Yeah. Hmm.
Julie (01:03:19.828)
as long as I breathe because I think we all should have access to counselling of the type that suits us and there are lots of different kinds of counselling, lots of different models of psychology and psychotherapy and all those sorts of things. We should all have access to that and there are resources. Look for them, find them, get someone to help you find them.
Ros Lindsey (01:03:20.672)
Hmm, me too.
Mm. Absolutely.
Julie (01:03:43.471)
And I'm also very privileged in the sense that I can do things for myself now because I no longer have three babies under three years of age and a husband that works and commutes to Sydney. You know, for a period of time and one of my darkest periods of my life, which still hurts me to say because my children being young was also one of the most beautiful periods of my life, but those things can walk hand in hand. That some of the darkest times of my life,
I was getting up before dawn because that's when they were getting up and I was on the hop until my husband got home at seven o'clock at night. I was on my own. I had no car. I had no family. I had no friends living near me. I was alone with three children under three years of age. Well, when was I going to go for a 20 minute walk, Ros?
Ros Lindsey (01:04:36.092)
It's full on.
Ros Lindsey (01:04:41.492)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:04:41.806)
Some nights Mick would get home and I'd still be in my pyjamas and busting for the toilet because you cannot leave toddlers unsupervised. So I understand now that my boys are grown and that I'm a grandparent so I don't have primary and prior to my parents needing more care than what I need to give them, know, or needing any kind of care, they live on the south coast, you know, they're independent. So I'm in a golden era where I actually get to say.
Ros Lindsey (01:04:50.623)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:05:10.786)
What does my day look like? When can I fit in those things? Also, privileged to have a flexible work life. So I understand and I would never say all you have to do is a 20 minute walk because for some people that is not bloody possible and we need to find ways around that for those people and that might involve asking for some help.
Ros Lindsey (01:05:24.895)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:05:34.543)
So it's different for everybody. But for me, it's really important now that I do move. Exercise is a really important part of my toolkit. Time in nature, know, getting outdoors, getting sunshine on my face, even on days where there's no plan to do that. Walking outside into the backyard, out onto the front street, getting sunshine on my face and fresh air in my lungs. That's really important.
meditation. So I put on my headphones when I go to bed at night and there's lots and lots of free resources for meditation. I go to sleep to a meditation and that really helps you sleep. Sleep!
Ros Lindsey (01:06:13.789)
Mm. Yeah.
Julie (01:06:14.624)
And I would say if you've to pick one thing to start with, sort that out first because if you aren't sleeping well, everything is harder. Everything's harder. And I don't care what your mental health is like. If your sleep is not good, your mental health will suffer. If your sleep is not good, your physical health will suffer. If your sleep is not good, you will have more fatigue than you need to deal with and your resources will be depleted.
Ros Lindsey (01:06:19.114)
Mm.
Julie (01:06:41.08)
There are lots and lots of things we can do. And I tell you, I hate the phrase, I hate the phrase sleep hygiene. It's a shocking phrase. When I went into the psych ward, when I went into the mental hospital, one of the first classes I had to go to was called sleep hygiene. And I was disgusted. I'm like...
Ros Lindsey (01:06:49.898)
Mm.
Julie (01:06:59.822)
I don't need to be told how to wash my face and brush my teeth. Get out of here. Like it sounded gross to me. Sleep hygiene. I'm hygienic. Get lost. So it's a terrible term for what really means just routine. And I've gone one step further and instead of routine, I call it ritual because I actually really love the part of my day where I stretch and say.
I'm going to go get ready for bed and it's my ritual and of course the hygiene part of it's there where I clean my skin and I clean my teeth, I fold my things and put them away.
Ros Lindsey (01:07:33.888)
That's nice.
Julie (01:07:40.917)
I make sure my room is a beautiful environment. I take my medicine. That's a bedtime thing for me. I settle into my beautiful bed. God, I love going to bed. I put my meditation on. I choose something nice. I choose whatever. I don't have the same one every night. I did for a long time and that was a beautiful part of my ritual. But I choose wherever the mood takes me now. say, I feel like, you know, a heart coherence meditation tonight.
like a muscle relaxant one tonight or I just feel like some affirmations or whatever it is. just find it, put it on, I snuggle in, I've got my beautiful little bedside lamp and I do the things that I need to do. So there's lots and lots of things that you can do to improve your sleep whether it's rubbing something on your feet or putting on a beautiful aromatherapy or music or whatever it is. There are lots of ways to
And of course, I read a really funny meme that was like, God, I'd do anything to get a solid eight hours of sleep. And somebody says, why don't you go to bed eight hours before you have to get up? And they go, I'm not doing that. Try it. Try it. I'd do anything for eight hours of sleep. Would you though? Would you really? Because the first thing is to go to bed eight hours before you have to be up.
Ros Lindsey (01:08:54.272)
That's right. But that they would do anything. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie (01:09:09.486)
So that, you know, sort that and a lot of other things will fall into place. And again, if you are caring for someone, if you are a shift worker, if you have toddlers, it ain't on for you. It's not going to happen for you. So we've got to find workarounds that help support you the best way that we can in the life circumstances that you find yourself. There are things that you don't have a choice about. Being a parent to your babies is one of those things.
But there are a lot of more things that we have a choice about than what we acknowledge and that's another thing. So recognising what is too much for you, finding the things in your day that give you purpose instead of just things that you feel you have to do to get by. again I recognise that I'm talking from a position of
My house isn't going to be taken away from me if I don't get up, commute to Sydney, work eight hours for a boss I hate, you know. So I am very lucky and I know that most people are in that situation. And don't get me wrong, I've got to work. I've got to work. But I do have choices around my work. But here's the thing. When I was working on the radio, when I had my cooking school, those were my jobs.
I didn't think I had a choice because it was my name on the radio show, was my name on the cooking school door. I gave up the radio because that lifestyle, that 4am start that I recognised that that was part of what was grinding me down, you know. I kept the cooking school going for another little while, a couple of years. And I...
I was becoming ill again, you know, it was bringing me down again because I just couldn't keep up with everything. And I found myself in a circumstance where, you know, it was post COVID, all my beautiful hospitality team had had to go find work in more forgiving sectors where they had more work. My second in charge had a beautiful little baby and had to leave me. And my son, who also worked for me, got his dream job in television. So he was working in my office. And I found
Julie (01:11:27.672)
myself alone in this business and I remember saying to my my psychologist Heather I I am not coping I was you know it and it wasn't that the business was doing badly the business was doing too well for me to handle on my own and I said to her I I'm feeling it all coming back I said actually the words I said whereas I can see the doors to the hospital from where I stand
and she said you have to shut it down and I said I can't I can't afford to I can't afford to shut it down and she said to me how much will your funeral cost?
Ros Lindsey (01:12:08.284)
dear.
Julie (01:12:11.51)
And that was a wake up call. And she said to me, said, because some of the words I used were, don't have a choice. And she said, everything's a choice. Some of them are just hard. So I made the choice and I shut my business. And I remember talking about that to it was a conference of people in the financial sector. And one lady said to me,
Ros Lindsey (01:12:19.68)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (01:12:29.492)
Right.
Julie (01:12:40.27)
But I don't have a choice. If my boss comes to me at 5pm with a stack of files and I've decided that my boundaries, we talk a lot about boundaries at these things, my boundaries are that I'm leaving at 5 o'clock because I've got to get home to my family and that's more important to me than pleasing my boss. And he comes at 10 to 5 with a stack of files and says you have to finish this before you go home. I don't have a choice. If we do, it's going to have a consequence.
Ros Lindsey (01:13:03.609)
you do mmm mm
Julie (01:13:09.814)
and you've got to decide what consequences you want to bear. Is the consequence that your family's going to miss out? Is the consequence that your mental health is going to fall apart? Is the consequence that you're going to lose your job? If the consequence is that you're going to lose your job, then think about the consequences of that. Will you find another job? What are the stressors that that will bring you? Everything is a choice.
And at the end of that conference, I had two women come up to me and they were quite excited. And they said, guess what? I said what? And they went, we're going to quit. my God. Don't put that on me. But you know, it's just, it feels like we don't have a choice. We do have a choice. And sometimes that choice would be untenable and it would mean.
Ros Lindsey (01:13:49.598)
Ha ha ha.
Ros Lindsey (01:13:56.817)
Mm. Incredible.
Mm.
Julie (01:14:06.846)
going to lose our home, we're going to lose and we, you know, so I have to, but if you recognise that I am making the choice to stay in this job because that is preferable to the alternative, but sometimes you might objectively look at that choice and say, well I actually do have some choices that I can make here. And what I would say to you is that sometimes
when you hold your boundaries, the choice isn't what you think it's going to be. It mightn't be that you lose your job. It might be. You know what? I've made a commitment that I'm leaving at five o'clock and I need you to bring these. So what I'm going to say to you, my dear employer, is that I'll be able to have that to you by mid-morning tomorrow. But I am unable to get that done tonight. And you know what might happen? It might not be your fired It might be. Yeah, sure. No worries. I don't need them till lunchtime anyway.
Ros Lindsey (01:14:59.39)
Mm.
Julie (01:15:01.142)
Sometimes the boundaries that we think are going to be the biggest asks and the things that we say that are going to be the most burdensome for people really aren't that big of a deal. you know, you can learn that over and over again. But this, do you know, I can't ask people to do that. And it's not that big of a deal. All you've got to do is ask. Ask. And again, like we said earlier on.
Ros Lindsey (01:15:25.184)
Mm.
Julie (01:15:28.878)
you might actually be giving them a gift. You know, you might actually be allowing somebody else to step up and step in and shine. And that when you say, I'm not coping, there's something else that you do when you say, I'm a bit stressed or I'm a bit overworked. And that is you actually become a safe space for other people to admit that to. So if you think about if you are the person that is always stoic and that can manage anything,
Ros Lindsey (01:15:33.652)
That's it. Mm. Mm.
Ros Lindsey (01:15:48.904)
Wow, that's very powerful, Julie. Hmm.
Julie (01:15:57.771)
and that powers through with a smile on their face and never stumbles. You're not a safe person to go to for somebody who needs to say, I'm not coping. Because they might think, well, she won't understand. She's copes with anything. She'll think I'm so pathetic. But if you're able, especially if you're in a leadership position, if you're able to say,
Ros Lindsey (01:16:11.121)
Mm. Mm.
That's it.
Julie (01:16:24.342)
You know what, that's a bit much for me. Could one of you guys take something off my plate? Because I'm actually going to leave my desk for lunch today. Or, you know, it is.
Ros Lindsey (01:16:33.97)
It's leadership. That's it. And if people are looking up to you and following your example, that that leadership needs to take place and people will sigh breath of relief to say, Yeah, it's actually not okay. We can all see it. It's just that nobody's been saying it. So
Julie (01:16:53.602)
Yeah, and you know, it applies and this is, you know, I've spoken about being a stay at home mum who's with children, you know, maybe.
There are resources amongst the people that you know or even people that you don't know yet in play groups. Someone who you can say, how about instead of me being with three under three, I'll be with six under three for two hours. Then you be with six under three for two hours. Let me nap. Let me dress. Let me just get through this sink full of dishes so that I can feel a bit calmer about it.
Ros Lindsey (01:17:24.596)
Yeah.
Julie (01:17:33.518)
There are ways, there are ways for you to ask for help. I'm not saying they're easy, because they're not. None of it's easy. But yeah, if you don't do it now...
then you might find yourself in a situation where your three children under three are having to be taken care of by anyone who can step in because you find yourself in hospital fighting for your life. If you don't make the decision, then the decision gets taken away from you. My decision was taken away from me. When they told me I had to go into hospital,
Ros Lindsey (01:18:04.382)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ros Lindsey (01:18:10.08)
That's it.
Yeah.
Julie (01:18:17.642)
I said, well, I can't because I've got a class at my cooking school. I'm back on the radio in a week and a half. It's just not possible. So don't be ridiculous. How long would I have to go for? And the doctor lied to my face and said two weeks. He lied to my face. Nobody goes into the hospital for two weeks. Not at that point. Not where you've been hauled back from the brink. He lied to me to get me there.
Ros Lindsey (01:18:22.056)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (01:18:36.66)
Right.
Ros Lindsey (01:18:43.744)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:18:45.846)
And I just said, well, it's not going to work for me, I'm sorry. And I turned around to Mick who was sitting next to me and he hadn't taken his eyes off my face and he was as white as a piece of paper. And I said, tell him. And he said, it actually sounds pretty right to me.
Ros Lindsey (01:19:07.198)
My gosh, he's had your back the whole way.
Julie (01:19:11.63)
that poor man. And that's when I... Yep. Yep. And that's when I understood that I had to just go and do it. And of course I was there for six weeks because that's how long they keep you. you know if they'd have said to me you've got to go for six weeks well I mean you would have wouldn't have got me there kicking and screaming.
Ros Lindsey (01:19:12.446)
Yeah, he is your biggest advocate for your life, yes.
Julie (01:19:36.995)
But that's what happens. If you won't take an hour out here and an hour out there somehow, some way, then you might find yourself out for six weeks. Or you might find yourself out for a lot longer and you might find yourself in a situation that you can't come back from. just this is what you want, Ros This is what I want. Just please.
Ros Lindsey (01:19:58.177)
you're speaking my language, Julie. It's it's for mental health, it's for physical health. It's exactly the same. Because if you won't take the action now, if you won't take time out to prioritize your health and look after yourself now, it does unfortunately catch up with you at some point and it will be inconvenient at the very least.
Julie (01:20:06.434)
Yep.
Julie (01:20:14.893)
Yeah.
Yep, Body and Soul
Body and Soul
Julie (01:20:26.902)
At the very least. And you know what? At the very best, I'll tell you what happens. You start doing these things, the tools in your toolbox, the movement, eating well for yourself, the time in nature, whatever it is that brought you joy as a child, that's another tool in my toolkit. So creativity, art, music, time with your family, things that bring you joy, my granddaughter, my God, she fills my heart, the things that fill you up.
Ros Lindsey (01:20:28.608)
So
Ros Lindsey (01:20:36.052)
Mm.
Ros Lindsey (01:20:39.604)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:20:57.582)
The opposite of that depth of despair is joy. And the opposite of that heartache is just a full and abundant life. And this is what I said to that lady who phoned me a couple of days ago. I promise you. I promise you.
that if you do these things, and some of these things might require you to just surrender and let somebody else tell you how it needs to be, if you do these things, your life on the other side is going to be magnificent.
Ros Lindsey (01:21:45.737)
My goodness.
Please, if you are listening, I know I'm just going to say that again.
Ros Lindsey (01:21:59.645)
Julie, what you have shared today is incredible. You have fully unpacked your journey for us. You have fully given of yourself and shown the person that is listening how it is possible to step in earlier and to prevent that gradual and sudden deterioration into a fully blown crisis.
Julie, thank you, thank you, thank you for all that you have shared. And if you're listening, you found it helpful, please share this with somebody, somebody that you love. You know, you We underestimate sometimes that feeling of when we we can give something, we don't know really what we're giving, but you know, for somebody to not feel alone.
Julie (01:22:57.283)
Yeah.
Ros Lindsey (01:22:57.46)
to see somebody who's who's reached rock bottom and who has who has clawed them their way back up and is now living a full, abundant, joyous, magnificent life, for that person to know that that that is possible for them, that is a gift that you can very easily give. So
Julie (01:23:19.67)
like to add, just because I think it's important for anyone who's going through this or anyone who loves someone who's going through this. And I think that I've covered the whole population here because it's wild how many people are going through it. It isn't a straight line, Ros There's no point A to point B.
Ros Lindsey (01:23:32.032)
Hmm.
Ros Lindsey (01:23:39.742)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:23:41.951)
It is circular, it's uphill and down dale, it is ongoing, it is a life's work. It is a life's work and there will be two steps forward, one step back, there will be recovery and then relapse, there will be all sorts of things but if you just hang on it gradually and gradually gets better and better until the backslides and the relapses
Ros Lindsey (01:23:44.671)
Yes.
Ros Lindsey (01:23:50.088)
Right.
Julie (01:24:10.37)
They're fewer and further between, they're less severe and actually sometimes appropriate. It's appropriate to feel sad, it's appropriate to feel stressed and overwhelmed, but you see them as signals rather than as a catastrophe. So just be aware that it's a life's work, but it's a joyful life's work. It's a beautiful life's work. It'll give you a life that's really worth grabbing a hold of.
Ros Lindsey (01:24:38.886)
Thank you so much, Julie. Thank you.
Julie (01:24:42.456)
Thanks, Ros
Ros Lindsey (01:24:45.616)
I'm I'll just say a quick disclaimer.
Ros Lindsey (01:24:54.14)
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Wellness Nurse podcast. If this conversation has helped you, please continue to look after yourself and prioritize your health like your life depends on it. And if you'd like more practical ideas on looking after your physical and mental health, check out other episodes on the Wellness Nurse channel. And there are two in particular you may find helpful at the moment.
There's one recognising the symptoms of burnout as well as another one on mental fitness and I invite you to subscribe to this channel.
A final disclaimer, this podcast is for general information only and it doesn't replace a consultation with your own doctor, your psychologist or psych psychiatrist or other qualified health professional.
Who knows your situation. So please seek personalised medical and mental health advice. Remember the number for Lifeline is 131114 and you don't have to be at crisis point to call them. So until next time, prioritize your health and look after you. Thank you.
Ros Lindsey (01:26:19.585)
Alright, I'll just press stop there.
